Curse

Epinephrine · Jun 29, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

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Originally Posted by Makkert

lol. yeah, that is what made me start this topic. i'm a ranger, and having high expertise is essential. i just can't think of a ranger without high expertise.
but the trend of this thread seems the opposite for a necro:
their primarary seems not really that essential in pvp

I think that the usefulness of Soul Reaping in PvP depends on the type of PvP and the necromancer build, as well as the team's build. In GvG, in which there are NPCs involved in the battles you get many more deaths. If there are spirits around expiring and minions being raised and destroyed you get a lot more energy, but those are odd cases. I think for arena it is next to useless, and for HoH it is limited unless worked into the team build.

Malchiel · Jun 29, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Soul Reaping is very useful... more than fast casting on many ocassions. It's not just useful in PvE, it's useful in PvP, even in the arenas.

I hate it when people speak without knowing anything.

I'm sorry to brag, but I just had to. I got a N/W who ocassionally takes down 2-3 enemies all by himself. I have another necro too, cause they're just that good.

Tell you what, when I'm killing 1 enemy, before going to the next one, soul reaping allows me to cast a combo of my expensive spells. And whoops that enemy falls down, now on to the next one, again soul reaping kicks in.

Another thing my first 3 combo of spells easily takes down enemies to 1/2 their health, while giving me that much back. Guess what happens, I'm almost guaranteed to win.

Minions not useful? You haven't pvped much my friend. I have wiped an entire team in GvG with 15 or so bone horrors all lvl 18. in GvG our team beat the opposition. In their base, while they're attacking the guild lord, I stood by the enemy spawn point. When they respawned the minions just obliterated them. Of course I'm helping too with disease, and poison, all the good stuff.

How come minions are that powerful?

1) They can be mass healed!
2) They are immune to many condition
3) They make targetting difficult
4) They block ways.

Necro IS very powerful. If their skills seem conditional it's because they're very strong. And oh, a good necro can keep his minions almost indefinitely. So you should be gaining more and more minions over time, no matter which side is winning/losing.

Why in PvE, I amassed nearly 30 bone minions. I had a literal army trailing me around which simply wipe out anything in its path. And with every death, I get even more minions.

Kali Ma · Jun 29, 2005, 11:32 PM // 23:32

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does any primary necro want to take up the gloves and defend their primary attribute?

I have a primary Ne/Mo that currently does this:

Death Magic - 13
Soul Reaping - 9
Healing Prayers - 9

With scar armor on my arms/legs, and my truncheon/cesta combo, my total energy is over 60, with a -1 to regen.

Soul Reaping is awesome, because everytime something dies I get +9 energy. Often when the party is Cntrl+Clicking their energy bars and the Monks and Eles are really low, mine is either full or close to it at the same time, and I've received several surprised comments regarding it from other spellcasters. I'm constantly healing, raising horrors, and casting spells which target corpses and minions, so it's not like I'm being frugal with my energy in the least bit. The only times I generally run out of energy are when some Mesmer casts that spirit shackles spell or some other energy draining spell, but I'll simply stop attacking and let my minions fight while I regen energy and heal the party.

I'm casting at least as much if not more than I did with my Elementalist and Monk characters, and rarely if ever run out of energy.

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Corpses just didn't drop that fast.

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1. Need corpses to cast anything decent [especially to raise minions]

Finding corpses in long dry spells or in PvP hasn't been a big issue so far, since my horrors are at a very high level and I use Heal Area and Heal Other to keep them alive for a very long time. With several mod bonuses that increase Death Magic casting speed and recharge time (boots, weapons and cestas), I'm able to beat out most necro foes in raising minions the majority of the time. It's extremely rare when there isn't at least one horror at my side, even in areas with few or no corpses.

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2. No corpses = Not using energy [unless you go into blood-magic and run around sacrificing all your HP = suicide without a decent monk]

Well, I personally need energy for things other than corpse manipulation, such as Deathly Swarm, Healing Seed, Heal Other/Area and Ressurect, depending on my skill set at the time. When I'm not controlling minions, the focus turns to being a support healer and casting Deathly Swarm to help finish off AOE attacks.

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3. So when something do die, and do leave a corpse, you probably didnt need the energy anyway [because only when the thing died can you actually cast something :P]

This is really kind of a narrow view of how soul reaping works, since it doesn't take into consideration the death of allies and minions. After I raise horrors and during the battle itself, I'll frequently cast Death Nova on them and then use Taste of Death like a trigger switch to set them off - this is good for both setting off a timed explosion and/or pulling 9 energy at a specific moment. Death Nova can also be place on teammates who are about to die, and their corpses can be used to animate horrors from as well.

Two or more necros (or an open minded party) with ressurect spells, health sacrificing spells and some vampiric weapons can pretty much kill themselves, raise a horror/fiend/minions from the corpse and then resurrect each other repeatedly, creating a vast army when there are no corpses around...

When a party member dies, one can raise a horror and cast Healing Seed on them to help the rest of the party, then take the time to resurrect that dead ally while the monk is busy healing and the horror is doing damage. Casting Death Nova on that horror then timing Taste of Death to explode them (85 Dmg to all surrounding foes) so that at least one creature dies, and then immediately casting Putrid Explosion to blow up that corpse (101 Dmg to all surrounding foes) can help a party to lay waste to an enemy group quickly.

In PvP, these same types of strategies can be used, but it just takes more patience and timing since there are less corpses to deal with. One also has to consider their allies, and possibly even themselves, as corpse fuel as well. And then have some form of non-corpse related skills that help the party during the times when there are no corpses, whether hex or enchantment removal, non-corpse based damage spells, or healing/protection buffs.

Imho primary Necros are an often misunderstood class, especially by those who haven't played it well or just dont' like the approach. It's a class that requires a certain type of gameplay that isn't necessarily straightfoward like the more popular classes, and is more akin to a Mesmer or trap-based Ranger than anything else. I've tried Warrior, Monk, Elementalist and Mesmer primaries... and Necro is hands down my favorite, which I never would have imagined upon first glance at the profession - it was the one I thought I'd probably never play. But playing it has made me a better all around player, I believe, and I feel more prepared for eventually approaching a Mesmer character again at some point, because I feel like I "get it" now.

Grenth watch over your soul...

Kali Ma · Jun 29, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

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Why in PvE, I amassed nearly 30 bone minions. I had a literal army trailing me around which simply wipe out anything in its path. And with every death, I get even more minions.

I love it in a party that has never really experienced a high level death magic necro that uses minons for more than just tanks, when all the "holy crap!" and "that's a pretty serious army there" and "go minions!" and "we rock!" comments start popping up. I espeically love it when a well coordinated group of AoE Ele attackers and Warrior tankers get into the whole minion bombs and healing seeds approach. Lots of fun.

Itbegins · Jun 29, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

first char i made was necro/mesmer deleted him during beta bbefore i even left presear...........made it mesmer/necro TONS BETTER necros primary attribute is slacking if it was you gain energy regen for however many seconds depending points into that would be cool to have 4 extra regen for 9 seconds then something else dies 5 regen for 8 seconds that would be cool

silvertemplar · Jun 30, 2005, 10:03 AM // 10:03

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Two or more necros (or an open minded party) with ressurect spells, health sacrificing spells and some vampiric weapons can pretty much kill themselves, raise a horror/fiend/minions from the corpse and then resurrect each other repeatedly, creating a vast army when there are no corpses around...

I've read a few threads on this tactic, sounds like a very creative solution [both in PvE and PvP]. I'd imagine 2 necros can do this indefinitely with someone resurrecting them. Having minions do all your work, it probably wouldn't matter whether you got -60% DP either..and THEN soulreaping will certianly kick into gear [because you probably will only have 20 or so max energy]. Now i don't know if that was the idea of things, but with sacrificing you can so easily commit suicide it almost -wants- you to do it, rather amusing :P [Almost makes sense from a RP "master of death" point of view too

]

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 10:19 AM // 10:19

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Originally Posted by silvertemplar

I've found it pretty much "crappy". Nevermind the PvP issues. In PvE a very large portion of the game you will struggle to find a corpse. So now you get this nice vicious circle

It's not as bad as the monks one, their is only relivant while you have enough energy to cast. So if you stop casting it is utterly useless.

In this is the order of Best unique attribute first (IMO)

Ranger
Elementalist
Mesmer (not sure never played one)
Necromancer
Warrior
(insert two other imaginary professions here)
Monk

At least for the Necro it's in perminant effect and it dose not rely on you haveing to have full energy and be able to cast spells to use it.

I'd say the monks Divine Favour should be a 2 point heal for evel rank in it and this should happen every 5 seconds. it would make the monk slighly less usless as a primary class.

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

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Originally Posted by gabby2600

In this is the order of Best unique attribute first (IMO)

Ranger
Elementalist
Mesmer (not sure never played one)
Necromancer
Warrior
(insert two other imaginary professions here)
Monk

Wow, I have to say I disagree with you more than you could possibly imagine. Have you ever played a monk? Divine Favour is pretty much the best primary out there - within the narrow scope of healing, at least, it does pigeonhole the monk into a healing role - it gives you Divine Boon for example, and with Divine Boon running a healer has more raw healing power than anyone else. The passive is even nice, 3.2 per lvl on any monk spell. With a divine boon running you can smite a hex off someone if you want, and you are still healing him for 100.

Sekkira · Jun 30, 2005, 02:28 PM // 14:28

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Originally Posted by silvertemplar

I've read a few threads on this tactic, sounds like a very creative solution [both in PvE and PvP]. I'd imagine 2 necros can do this indefinitely with someone resurrecting them. Having minions do all your work, it probably wouldn't matter whether you got -60% DP either..and THEN soulreaping will certianly kick into gear [because you probably will only have 20 or so max energy]. Now i don't know if that was the idea of things, but with sacrificing you can so easily commit suicide it almost -wants- you to do it, rather amusing :P [Almost makes sense from a RP "master of death" point of view too

]

It wouldn't work though, once a necro dies, their minions become masterless and attack anything.

Also, I am going to end this debate right here with:

Soul Reaping is the best primary for a Necromancer.

Fast Casting is the best primary for a Mesmer.

Expertise is the best primary for a Ranger.

Divine Favor is the best primary for a Monk.

Energy Storage is the best primary for a Elementalist.

Strength is the best primary for a Warrior.

There, I win.

silvertemplar · Jun 30, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

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It wouldn't work though, once a necro dies, their minions become masterless and attack anything.

Unless im mistaken, and i have no idea how well this would work, but i'm sure these spells can "intervene" :P

Veratas Aura:
Sacrifice 33% of maximum health. All hostile animated undead in the area become bound to you. Verata's Aura ends after 120-264 seconds. When Verata's Aura ends, you lose your bond with any undead bound to you.

Verata's Gaze - Spell
Sacrifice 16-67 health. If target hostile animated undead has a master, its bond to its master is broken, making it hostile to all other creatures. If it had no master, you become its master.

Sekkira · Jun 30, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Verata's Gaze would probably be the best idea.

Ollj · Jun 30, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

A basic rule is:
If more than 3 enemies die Necros energy is the best, if less die its not.

now the funny thing is, if a necro kills one it makes a chain reaction most times.

corax5 · Jun 30, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

People are also forgetting the Curse line, someone erlier said its good in PvE but Sucks in PvP, well i have to disagree, iv just got my necro/mesmer to level 10 and decided to fight in the ascalon arena while i still could, i took my points out of death magic put them into Curses so i was using Blood, Curses, SR and Domination. My team got about 4 Flawless victories in a row, i just went from target to target casting Soul Barbs then stacking hexes, it was the easiest time ever, wr probably would have won even more if i haden't got lagged out.....Damned err=7....

toastgodsupreme · Jun 30, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

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Originally Posted by corax5

People are also forgetting the Curse line, someone erlier said its good in PvE but Sucks in PvP, well i have to disagree, iv just got my necro/mesmer to level 10 and decided to fight in the ascalon arena while i still could, i took my points out of death magic put them into Curses so i was using Blood, Curses, SR and Domination. My team got about 4 Flawless victories in a row, i just went from target to target casting Soul Barbs then stacking hexes, it was the easiest time ever, wr probably would have won even more if i haden't got lagged out.....Damned err=7....

I'm seeing more and more though that MoP is being turned useless due to the requirement of physical damage. Warriors weilding fiery dragon swords and trying to look cool basically make it useless.

Though, enfeebling blood and shadow of fear alone are worth taking curses. Spiteful Spirit is hilarious when sticking it on more than one warrior pounding on you. If you get two of them stuck on you for whatever reason, you can enfeeble them, then spiteful spirit (pray your staff or offhand 20% recharge kicks in) both of them. better than empathy IMO.

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

None of the stuff about curse line etc... has anything to do with the necromancer primary. Those are good reasons to bring curses along, and I agree that curses are powerful, but a secondary necromancer can do all that, or a primary without soul reaping. Let's convince people that Soul Reaping is good.

Kali Ma · Jun 30, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

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Now i don't know if that was the idea of things, but with sacrificing you can so easily commit suicide it almost -wants- you to do it...

At first I though all the health sacrificing stuff was stupid, and didn't get the point... then one day, it hit me that I was looking at it too narrowly, thinking like a character from another profession who didn't want to die at all. Now I do think that the devs designed the Necro as a sacrificial character, now only with their health but with their lives as well. Necros are masters of death, just like Monks are masters of life... once a Necro stops fearing their own death and sees it as an advantage, a whole world of potential opens up that wasn't there before.

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It wouldn't work though, once a necro dies, their minions become masterless and attack anything.

From a straightforward perspective, this is true. But I've done it, and it does work when two or more characters work together and use the right skills. When both members each die rather than only one of them, then Verata's Gaze solves the problem, and Veratas Aura will work in most situations because you don't really need them for more than 4 minutes in a situation like we're talking about, since by then they will have either been killed, blown up or mined for health.

Many Necro spells at first glance seem dumb... they dont' make sense. Why would anyone want to raise a masterless horror? Or sacrifice a huge chunk of their max health for an entire battle? It's when one starts to use skills in combination with each other, and often across the differenct attributes or professions, that they begin to make sense.

Like consider the Vengeance res spell... i read a lot where monks use this on problem party members, and that's cool. But consider a N/Mo who uses this... no death penalty on the member it's cast on, and it has an off switch, or at least a guaranteed death in 30 seconds, that will reap energy while creating two opportunities at raising a horror or using a corpse manipulating skill - before the res and after the subsequent death. One could use Vengeance over and over on a fallen party member when there are few enemy corpses around, without that party member incurring any death penalty. As long as the party member is open minded, two people could do this indefinitely and purposefully.

toastgodsupreme · Jun 30, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

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Originally Posted by Epinephrine

None of the stuff about curse line etc... has anything to do with the necromancer primary. Those are good reasons to bring curses along, and I agree that curses are powerful, but a secondary necromancer can do all that, or a primary without soul reaping. Let's convince people that Soul Reaping is good.

Meh, soul reaping isn't all it's cracked up to be sometimes. SOMETIMES.

I went necro because, well, they look damn ****ing cool. That and they're less targeted in PvP than Mesmers and Monks.